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Evidence notes

Louie Joyce's website

Haphaven (written by Norm Harper)

René Pfitzner'south website

Sneaky Goblins

Transcript

NB: This is an edited transcript and has not been checked for accurateness. I apologise for any errors.

Introduction

[Music]

Karen Beilharz: Welcome to Hiveminded Podcast, an occasional and seasonal podcast well-nigh the creative arts and the people who create them. My proper noun is Karen Beilharz and I'm coming to y'all from Sydney, Australia.

During this mini season of the podcast, we are focusing on comic creators. Equally the COVID-19 pandemic has close down all the conventions and zine fairs where I would normally see my friends in the Australian comic scene, I thought instead it would be fun to catch upwardly with them and interview them nearly comics, and ask them all the little niggly questions I've ever wanted to ask them almost their projects and their creative processes.

Louie Joyce is an award-winning comics creator, illustrator and rollerblader who hails from Wollongong in New South Wales, Australia. He is known for his work on Haphaven with Norm Harper, which won the 2020 Silver Ledger Award, and which is about a superstitious girl named Alex who steps on a scissure and actually does break her female parent's back, so she embarks on a quest to save her; Past the Last Mountain with Paul Allor, which won the 2017 Silver Ledger Accolade and which is about an unlikely family of a dragon, a troll and a faun who are on the run from the Usa regime, who have rounded upwardly and imprisoned all the fantasy creatures that alive amidst us; the sci-fi 1-shot Astral; the blackness and white silent comic A Life in the City; and his self-published collections of brusque comics and illustrations, Mishmash and Hodgepodge.

René Pfitzner is a comic artist and writer, and former animator and storyboarder who hails from Melbourne in Victoria, Australia. He is known for his all-ages fantasy adventure story Sneaky Goblins, which is about a goblin named Dank who is forced to proceed a quest to try to steal a sacred elf relic for the local mob; the follow-upwards anthology Sneaky Goblins at College, which collects together three stories well-nigh Dank and his friends; and Mythic Animal Trainer, which is about a human named Ulrick who, after losing his job in the royal stables, sets out on an adventure to try to get information technology back—and save the kingdom in the procedure.

In this episode of the Hiveminded Podcast, Louie, René and I talk most all-ages comics, what makes a good all-ages comic, some good all-ages comics that nosotros similar, and also how beingness parents has affected the way nosotros create all-ages comics.

This is Part 1 of my conversation with them.

KB: Welcome to the Hiveminded Podcast. My proper noun is Karen Beilharz and I'1000 coming to yous from Sydney in Australia. And I'm here today with 2 comic creators: Louie Joyce, who is in Wollongong, and René Pfitzner, who is in Melbourne in Victoria. How-do-you-do guys! It'south nice to run into you.

René Pfitzner: Hey Karen! Good to be with you lot.

Louie Joyce: Hey Karen! Groovy to be here.

KB: So today we're going to talk well-nigh ii things: we're going to talk about all-ages comics and then we're going to talk about colouring, which I know nothing about. Which will be very, very fun.

Comic creator origin stories

KB: But before we become to that, I'd like to know: what is your comic creator origin story? Louie, do you desire to showtime?

LJ: Yeah, my comic creator origin story is, I'one thousand sure, a lot similar a lot of other people's. I've been reading comics as long as I tin recall. And I've merely always absolutely loved the medium. It has always been around. It'southward always been my favourite way of experiencing or ingesting a story.

My dad collected comics—or collects comics; he nevertheless does. Actually, this past weekend, I've been helping him motility business firm and packing and organising his comic collection, and it'due south been amazing [Laughter] and awesome to look at all these comics that I remember flipping through equally a kid. There'south boxes backside me, because I claimed a whole bunch of stuff that I call up flipping through as a kid, and stuff that definitely—I probably shouldn't take been flipping through. But I tin can run into why I was and so taken with the medium, having information technology all around me. It's simply an heady affair equally a kid to look at: it'south visual, it's engaging, it'due south not all given to you; you are a participant. You are kind of putting the pieces of these boxes on these pages—the puzzle of that—together in your head. I merely really loved that as a child, and accept continued to do then.

I definitely waned a little bit in my reading when I was a teenager. Merely information technology's been a pretty consistent hobby of mine. And it definitely influenced me to draw equally well, and to try and tell my own stories and create my own worlds and characters, and things like that. And then being a comics reader has definitely been a huge office of why I became a comic creator.

KB: Were there particular ones that your begetter bought that you were into, or—?

LJ: Oh, I remember looking at Lone Wolf and Cub stuff when I was very young, and its intense, graphic, black and white storytelling, just beautifully illustrated—there's and so much movement on these pages. And if I look at myself now and the artist I am now and the blazon of drawings I effort to create, it'south all nigh creating that sense of move—this idea that these characters are moving on the page, and if yous look away from them, they might just go on moving or any—this frozen moment in time. I can run across and so much of that love of that sense of paradigm and motion was baked into me from looking at this kind of stuff when I was vii, 8 years old.

There's so much—a whole bunch. In that location's an 10-Men comic, because my dad would get X-Men comics. I would get X-Men comics in the 90s, but my dad has this issue and I always had to inquire him to look at it. So this issue in particular became this kind of mythological issue that was different to the X-Men comics that I was reading, and information technology's a famous issue drawn by Barry Windsor-Smith, and it is stunningly beautiful—an incredible washed-in-one comic storytelling experience. So there was all these astonishing things around me and information technology definitely got me wanting to create and tell stories through that medium. Information technology all stems from there, actually! [Laughter]

KB: Only what fabricated you and so have the leap to outset making your own comics?

LJ: I think the great thing well-nigh being young and reading comics is that one time yous figure out that the people are doing—these creators are doing it—at a base of operations level, with pencil and paper—you know? That is all it takes to tell stories—is to draw your ain niggling pictures. Most kids love drawing, and I certainly did when I was that age. So it didn't seem unattainable to me: "Oh, I've got a pencil. I've got a rubber. I've got pieces of paper. I tin try and tell my own stories."

When you're a kid, information technology'due south not even that y'all feel you lot have to make up your own stories. I tin depict my own Spider-Man stories. I can draw my own X-Men stories. I tin have these characters and create my ain adventures with them. I was copying drawings straight from comics. So that was developing my drawing skills as it went. And my mum, she wasn't a comics reader as much. But she would do these little cartoon strips most when she was travelling, or about family or stuff. So it was effectually me as a form of expression—as a matter that was a fun kind of activity that you could do. So the idea that it was something that I could do definitely spurred me on to keep cartoon.

KB: That'south so cool! My mum used to practice something similar every bit well: she would draw little cartoons and things—little stories about us or other things equally well. I'd forgotten about them, really, until you lot but mentioned your mum. I didn't really get downwardly the drawing route. It's really lovely, I recollect, when your parents are also into comics and drawing comics themselves. I tin encounter how they can still have a big influence on you. It's having a large influence on my daughter as well, just having comics around the business firm—like, I only sort of leave them—

LJ: Yeah, that's right! They're making their own comics, right?

KB: Oh yeah!

LJ: Yes. That'southward awesome.

KB: I'm really in the process of putting together Volume 3 of Astrid'due south monster stories.

LJ: Amazing!

KB: And she's well into doing the comics for Book four. It was actually kind of funny: she stopped for a very long time, and it was only recently considering I said, "Okay, if we're going to do Volume three, yous've got to get-go scanning in the art for me", and and then that sort of kicked off her making more than, because she hadn't done it for ages. And now she tells me, "Oh, I just sat around at lunch and recess drawing my comics!" Okay.

LJ: Ah, that is and then cool!

KB: She'southward and then funny. How about y'all, René? What is your comic creator origin story?

RP: Well, Louie, it's funny that you mention your dad'due south comics. My dad had a picayune pile of Phantom comics that he'd picked upwards through the 80s, I guess. And far from beingness inspired by those, I just looked at them and I idea, "Oh, that is so old-fashioned!" You lot know—I was not [Laughter]—I didn't desire to practice anything like that!

So the comics I got into as a kid were basically Tintin and Asterix comics, because it's amazing: you become to school libraries and public libraries now, and they're just total of graphic novels and comics, and in that location'due south a whole section. Simply dorsum when I was coming upward, there were only two comics yous could get in the library, and it was those two. I remember the get-go time I brought dwelling an Asterix comic: it was Asterix in Britain, and I merely read that matter over and over; it was so colourful. I couldn't believe information technology. It was magical.

And then information technology pretty much grew from at that place. And the Tintin comics. I got into Spider-Homo, the Sal Buscema—I'g non sure how to pronounce his name, but I just loved his style—simply really graphic and bold. Not a lot of details in the characters, simply, that stuff grabbed me.

So it went on from at that place in the 90s. I started buying my own and I got a lot of the Paradigm Comics when they started coming out. And, again, the colours in those were just astonishing: they jumped off the page and I idea, "If I can do something like this, that would be fantastic!"

I started making my own comics in school and a friend of mine, he would write the stories, and I would draw the characters. So we started with this graphic symbol chosen "Horrible Harriet"—typical 4-panel trivial stories—and it was her getting the best of the adults around her.

KB: How former were you when you were doing this?

RP: This was high school. But a couple of years later, we started to go a flake more edgy. In that location was a local publication called The Boutique Times. My friend said, "Let'south come up with characters nosotros tin put in this affair." Then nosotros submitted a couple of different comics and one of them was called Bob the Yob: he was simply this overweight guy who drinks beer all 24-hour interval, and he's got some very stiff opinions. Just aye, we submitted that ane [Laughter] I just expect back on those drawings and it was almost like I was trying to practice Image-way, but the actual fabric was more than of your Bruce Mutard kind of—actually, Bruce was in the same publication for a few years. Then that was pretty exciting to be involved with that.

After that, I pretty much stopped making comics. I got into animation after university and was doing that for a few years. And and then some Christian friends of mine were putting together a comics anthology, and I said, "I'll be in that". And I just went, "Oh, what'south some scenarios I can come with?" and I retold some of Jesus' parables using schoolhouse kids. I put those together, sent them in and put it in a little anthology comic chosen Pulp Crucifiction, which ran for a couple of issues, and—

KB: I remember that! [Laughter]

RP: That was a while dorsum! And and then I stopped once more for a few more years. I was at the stage of my life where I was really thinking most creativity and what I was doing with my ability, and I started to get back into landscape oil painting, and going out on a forenoon and just in plein air doing landscapes in oils. At the same time, I was also listening to a podcast called Newspaper Wings with a guy from California who had worked at Disney—Chris Oatley. That really captured my imagination: he described making your own comic—and incidentally, he was putting his own comic upwards on the web. And so publishing the comic yourself, just putting up a folio every week and creating something of your own that'due south ongoing—an ongoing story that you lot tin eventually collect into a volume. I started thinking about that. I idea, "That'south a big projection."

And I listened to another podcast, which you were on, Karen, and I can't remember—we never figured out which podcast information technology was, only you were talking about doing your comics on depression and I idea, "Wouldn't that be cool: team upwardly with Karen; she could practice story; I could do pictures". And then of course we did interact on the Monsters book, and we as well did that one-off on cosplaying (Coarse Play). I retrieve that was the turning point that gave me the confidence to then go, "Right: I can do these longer course stories—100-150 pages." And then I did. Which pretty much brings us up to today.

KB: That's so cool. [Laughter] There you lot go: I didn't know I was function of your creator origin story. That'due south very, very cool.

RP: Absolutely!

Haphaven and Sneaky Goblins

KB: So nosotros're going to talk a chip about all-ages comics and I wanted to talk to both of y'all, considering you've both done some. Merely I thought you could talk about simply i detail project and how it came to be. I was suggesting that, perhaps, Louie you could talk nigh Haphaven, which is a book that you did with Norm Harper, then information technology's not completely just your thing, and René, peradventure you could talk about Sneaky Goblins. Louie, do you want to give us the Artist Alley pitch for Haphaven?

LJ: Yes, sure. It's been a while since I've been in an Artist Alley, so I might be a bit rusty. But nosotros'll see how it goes.

Haphaven is an all-ages story well-nigh a immature daughter who, on the eve of her 13^thursday birthday, steps on a scissure and literally breaks her mother's dorsum. And she and then has to get on a journeying to discover a cure for her mum in the mystical world of Haphaven, which is kind of this world that is continued to our own, and it's where all the ability of superstitious belief comes from.

She's an incredibly superstitious young girl. She throws salt over her shoulder, she has daily rituals effectually everything, she'southward very, very superstitious. So the entire story is all about her learning to have control of her own life and to take responsibility for her ain deportment, only through an crawly, mystical magical run a risk filled with leprechauns and the Jinx and all these superstitious-based characters and things.

KB: And there'due south an element of family histories in there too, isn't there.

LJ: Yeah, so the reason behind her reliance on superstition is based effectually a tragedy that happened when she was young. She's learning to bargain with loss and all of these things every bit well. So information technology's got a lot of elements inside it. But one of those great things near all-ages stories is it'southward all through this lens of an audacious, colourful, fun story that everyone tin can notice stuff in.

KB: So what was it that jumped out at y'all about the project when it was first pitched to you?

LJ: Well, I can recall running down King St, Newtown, with my sister, avoiding cracks, shouting, "Step on a scissure and you'll pause your mum'due south back!" Just that initial hook of, "Whoa, what if it really happened? Nosotros stepped on a crack and something'due south happened!"—that hook, for me, immediately, I was, "Yes! That sounds really cool." And then as I read more into the story and the take chances of it, it just sounded similar a really fun journey and a fun story to illustrate.

Also, the main character, Alex, and her relationship with her parents—her dad, her mum—that formed the backbone of the whole story came at the exact right time for me. Me and my wife had just had a baby—it must have been a year and a half earlier than when I started? Mayhap a chip more than. He might have been 2 or something. Then we had a young child at the time, and immediately I was thinking about, every bit a creator, the kind of work that I make and the stories that I want to tell, and the things that I want to be able to read with my kid. And so this felt to me like a story that I could illustrate—that I could put a lot of my own experiences equally a parent and watching my kid grow—and something that I would hopefully be able to read with them in a few years downwardly the line too.

Likewise, Norm the author, who is the one who contacted me virtually information technology, he seemed like a really dainty guy. I looked at some of his previous work also. He did a book called Rikki Tikki Tavi, which was an adaptation of the Rikki legends, and that was really proficient. So it seemed like a really expert project and an exciting project to exist a office of.

KB: Had y'all done an all-ages story earlier?

LJ: No. I'd done some shorter comics. At this fourth dimension, I was doing my Mishmashi and Mishmash books. Mishmash was full of brusque comics, and then it was a place for me to explore storytelling and different styles of illustrating, and different storytelling methods of making comics. I'd done a few shorter stories that could be considered all-ages, but nothing—my previous comic and the longest affair I'd done before that was Past the Last Mountain, which is non all-ages [Laughter], every bit much as it looks similar information technology might be sometimes.

Also, growing up, I was a huge Stublio Ghibli fan: those movies, to me, are the image of quality all-ages entertainment, because they are of such a loftier standard of imaginative, engaging storytelling that does hit. If I retrieve of an example of all-ages, that is what I recall of. And this felt to me that that was a story in a similar vein that I would be able to bring those kind of inspirations to and have a crevice at doing that. And it was a such a blast to illustrate. I had so much fun on that book.

KB: Yeah, I recall I could tell, just looking at your fine art and the fashion: a playfulness is there. But did you find that you lot inverse your approach because it was an all-ages story, or was it pretty much the same?

LJ: It was pretty much the same. I exercise tend to change my approach a little bit, artistically, stylistically—from a drawing standpoint—to each project. I think there are a few things I did with this projection—piffling changes in the way I was colouring, little textures I was using different. I tend to change things upward a little bit per projection. So in terms of storytelling, yes: simpler layouts. Sometimes I tin can become quite experimental. Some of my shorter comics are web-based and very abstract, and infinite scrolling. Or some of my more zine-based projects are—I'm trying to be as inventive as possible, in terms of how I'chiliad telling the story. But I think for an all-ages volume, and for a graphic novel that's really targetting that all-ages/YA marketplace, you want it to be every bit clear every bit possible—as accessible as possible. And then I actually wanted clear, concise storytelling, and that was probably my biggest focus in doing the book.

KB: Wow, that's really interesting! How well-nigh y'all, René? Do you lot want to give u.s. the Creative person Alley pitch for Sneaky Goblins?

RP: Certain. So I've never actually been in Artist Aisle, just I will be at [Laughter] Oz Comic Con Melbourne in December! [Editor's note: This interview was recorded in Nov 2021.] Then I'k very excited near that: my outset-ever Comic-Con.

KB: And so this is good practice! [Laughter]

RP: Yep! Tell me how I go. And so Sneaky Goblins is about a goblin. He's a student at an assassination school, and he graduates and has got no job. And and then, he gets forced into taking on this mission from the local crime gang, and he has to steal a sacred elf relic from a country far away, because he's not very resourceful: he wasn't a skilful educatee. In fact, he was the worst student in his yr. Then he has to recruit some friends to help him get the relic, and become it dorsum to the crime boss before his whole family is killed. He manages to cause a whole lot of mayhem along the way—the way yous'd expect a goblin would. And I similar to think that fifty-fifty though he's a nasty little guy, y'all kind of stop upwardly rooting for him along the way.

The way I showtime conceived of this story was I'grand a big Globe of Warcraft fan from way back. I'm taking a breather from Warcraft at the moment, considering information technology is very addictive. But there was this character who was ever around in the background—a little goblin character who sat on shoulders. He had a shop and you could buy items from him. He sat on acme of an ogre and he would just sort of tell the ogre where to become and what to do. And I thought, "Oh, that's a really cool thought for a human relationship betwixt 2 characters." And I thought, "Peradventure the goblin—he's in a bad situation and he gets this giant ogre or orc to help him out, and tricks him into it." I was on holidays, and I speedily wrote this idea downwardly in my periodical, and I thought, "Yeah, that would be really cool to exercise a brusque drawing or a comic book." I eventually put it together and thought, "Yeah, I can expand this idea—brand it a whole book out of it"—and sabbatum downwardly, belted out ten,000 words, and that was the story. [Laughter] It just happens similar that, you know: inspiration strikes and you've got to take information technology.

KB: That's fantastic! And it'south really interesting to me that that core human relationship between Dank the goblin and Bog the orc was what kicked it all off. That's really, actually absurd.

RP: Yeah, definitely. In that location was an anthology called Oi oi oi! and the creator of that—his name escapes me—

KB: Nat Karmichael.

RP: Nat Karmichael! Of course. [Laughter] Nifty guy. He said, "Do yous want to contribute to this?" And I said, "Yeah. How many pages do y'all want?" He said, "Well, let's commencement with 6 or 8 pages and only serialise it." I sent in the kickoff eight pages of Sneaky Goblins and I idea, "Well, here'south a manageable schedule. I tin just transport him eight pages at a time." I call back it merely made it into a couple of problems before that closed up. But that'due south how I started that practise of ongoing page creation.

KB: And when you started with the project, were you thinking it would be an all-ages story?

RP: Yeah. I basically wanted to create the kind of volume that I'd be into. And from that, I was very much referencing Asterix and that madcap cartoon violence kind of affair. But yeah: I wanted my kids to be able to read information technology as well. And so I tried to proceed the swearing to a minimum, and nothing besides gorey. There is a flake of blood, simply I did take out a piddling fleck of swearing and blood for the final printing of the book. Simply, yeah, I wanted my kids to read it and share it with their friends, and I've even given some to the school libraries in our area and then more kids tin read it.

Recently, I did an author talk for my daughter's Grade 1 course. They were really excited, because I did a workshop where I made a 1-folio comic, and I just sourced ideas from all the kids—asked them, "What'south the character going to be? What's special about them? What's the big problem that they accept, and how are they going to solve that problem?" They simply composed this story within one page, and I did a screenshare and made that comic with them.

KB: That's so cool! [Laughter] I dearest that.

RP: Yeah, it was pretty awesome. And my girl was so excited: she loved it.

KB: Aye, there's something about having your parents come to the classroom—well, before they get too former and it'due south embarrassing. When they're young enough [Laughter] information technology's like, "Oh, this is so cool! My mum is coming—my dad is coming to talk to my grade."

RP: Yeah. I don't know how excited my xiv-year-old would be if I went to his school and did that. Although, I have offered to our local high schoolhouse where he goes. And so who knows? One day, mayhap.

KB: Yeah, one twenty-four hour period! [Laughter] Excellent.

What makes a good all-ages comic?

KB: So what practice you guys remember makes a good all-ages comic?

RP: You get, Louie.

LJ: I discover that the all-ages stories that I actually respond to are ones that are non talking downward in whatsoever fashion. They're non seeing "all ages" as an excuse to simplify the storytelling. They're using "all ages" an excuse to kind of clarify—or as a reason to clarify, instead of simplify. And so they're not making things elementary and easy, and saccharide-blanket everything or whatever; they're simply telling things in a manner that is articulate and approachable to a unlike range of ages, if y'all know what I mean.

So it'southward stories that treat everyone with the same—I can't recollect of how all-time to say this, but information technology's like they're—they don't talk down; they just talk to a wide group of people and let anybody come to their own—it's similar they requite you all the data and they let the unlike people—the unlike ages who are experiencing it—come to their ain conclusions.

I observe that I always actually respond to that, considering I get annoyed when, if I'm watching something with my kid and I know that they're just trying to make information technology "kiddy"—when I know that my kid has a deeper understanding and can grasp deeper concepts, and should be experiencing these deep concepts and things now when they can hash out information technology—when they're watching a movie, when they're reading a story with their parent—and they tin can ask questions and discuss it. If I watch something with my kid and they don't inquire any questions, I'yard kind of a bit suss on it. If I watch something with my kid and they are request questions, I'm like, "Oh yep, that'south good. That'south promoting a level of word, and that's a really groovy thing." So that, to me, is a sign of a really adept all-ages story.

KB: Yeah, I know what you mean: the dumbing downwardly matter can be a large office of children's—well, not merely comics, but children'due south literature generally. But you're right: expert all-ages comics don't exercise that at all. There's a sort of respect in that location for the audience.

LJ: Yeah, "dumbing downward": that'due south a good manner to put it. And they're so obvious when it's happening, and I observe it annoying. [Laughter]

KB: Yep. What do you think, René?

RP: Yeah, I completely agree: what makes a expert grown-ups show, the aforementioned elements brand a expert kids evidence. I like to compare comics and TV that I can tell are just cranked out considering the studio has a licence and they see this equally a fashion to sell stuff to kids. Contrast that with stuff that'due south creator-owned. A lot of Drawing Network came up from creator-endemic stuff—Hazard Fourth dimension, Clarence and Steven Universe—and you lot look at the quality of that storytelling versus something like Total Drama Island or Slugterra—they look like they were fabricated to sell toys. Kids might beloved them, but I'm looking at them, going, "This is the exact aforementioned story as last calendar week"— [Laughter]—"and the kids are going to figure that out and they'll experience ripped off."

There might be some nostalgic value. I'yard sure plenty of parents looked down on He-Homo back in the mean solar day. Simply we can look back at that and think, "Oh, isn't that brilliant—just the whole aesthetic—and these characters who were and so archetypical and just fun to watch."

Practiced all-ages comics

RP: But, yeah, I'm biased. I have item comics that I like. See, I don't read Dog Human being. I don't remember Dog Man'south a proficient comic.

KB: What??? [Laughter]

RP: From the author of Helm Underpants. Simply my son loves them. A 10-year-quondam. He still—well, he probably just recently stopped reading them—but he just poured over those books and loved them. And then I don't know. I know what I don't like. [Laughter] And I know what I like. But yeah, it's sometimes hard to put a finger on it.

KB: Oh, you got to read Dog Homo! Dog Man are very proficient all-ages comics. I know the mode doesn't agree with everybody, but you got to recollect that the conceit is they're being drawn past George and Harold from Captain Underpants and that'southward why they wait the style they do. They can be surprisingly sophisticated for what you think are quite simple stories. I oasis't read all of them—

RP: I'm going to have to give them another chance and read the Domestic dog Human stories once again.

KB: Yeah and also the Cat Kid Comic Club series that he's simply started, which is the Domestic dog Man spin-off, the showtime one. Oh my goodness! It's hilarious? Have y'all read it, Louie? Cat Kid Comic Society? Oh wow!

Then it's basically L'il Petey decides to do a comic-making club, and he's doing information technology Molly, who's this other character from the Dog Human being series. I haven't read that book so I can't call back how Molly's in the motion-picture show. But there are all these frogs also who are in the club, making comics. And it's a master grade, in a mode, of teaching kids to make comics, considering they are making all these short comics throughout the volume in different styles and talking about it.

For example, in that location's this frog named Melvin who'south a bit stiff-upper-lip kind of thing, and he draws this comic called "Dennis the Toothbrush Who Wanted to be a Lawyer for Dinosaurs". And [Laughter] it's just done in HB pencil, black and white-ish, and it says, "Dennis the Toothbrush wanted to become a lawyer for dinosaurs. So he did." And that'due south it. [Laughter] And the residuum of the frogs are just absolutely outraged at the story and say to him, "Melvin! It'southward terrible" and merely completely dumping on him. And Petey is being a very adept teacher and saying, "Well, Melvin did a good task and he tried, but at that place are some elements missing from the story." And then information technology teaches kids about storytelling—how to have the commencement, middle and cease—through these different comics and showing what comics can be. Anyways, it's brilliant. It was nominated for an Eisner, I recall, this year. And then option that one up.

LJ: Yeah, wow. That's really expert to know, because I haven't gotten into the Dog Man stuff yet. I read a little bit of my niece's copy and I found it—it just wasn't—I don't know, I wasn't that into information technology. But I tin can see that it is very quality reading experience and a very creative reading experience, and that then—what you're maxim most that other one—what was information technology called? Cat Comic Club?

KB: Cat Kid Comic Guild. Chip of a natural language twister.

LJ: Aye, that sounds nifty. So I'll check that out, definitely!

KB: Distressing, René. I interrupted yous. I thought it was interesting how you come at it, every bit well, from that perspective of having worked in animation and seeing a lot of kids shows. Was it like that when you were working in animation?

RP: We used to receive the scripts of all of these Disney sequels. This was the big—I want to say Michael Eisner, merely you lot just mentioned "Eisner" and now I'thou dislocated. The CEO of Disney in the 2000s: his whole thing was, "Permit'southward pump out sequels to our classic movies." So we were i of the studios worldwide that was involved in the production of those. The story was completely written, storyboarded and vocalism recorded overseas, and we just used to receive that and bring our own magic to it through [Laughter] the power of animation. And information technology was difficult to sometimes not exist a chip contemptuous virtually the whole project.

But you notice joy wherever you can in any workplace, and I only call up ane guy saying, "You know, these are merely actually smart scripts: they're appealing to boys, they're appealing to girls, they're striking all these demographic marks. The stories are striking all these notes all the manner through. Simply you couldn't help just feel that sometimes it was fabricated by committee."

So that's why I actually similar this thought of a creator-owned bear witness or comic book. The creator has their own vision. They haven't exhausted their creative bank account. They're however coming up with fresh ideas, and they're non only turning it in because it'due south a job and they take to put this movie out, because it'southward in the schedule, and you take to put out Cinderella III or they won't be able to sell it supermarkets.

But in terms of all-ages comic books, I really love Chris Thompson'south book, Infinite Dumplins. That's ane of my favourite ones. It's about an intergalactic family. The dad is this lumberjack-type grapheme and he travels the universe, harvesting space whale poo or something—information technology's been a while since I've read it—and so the daughter has to get used to new schools and a new neighbourhood, and follows her mum around on weekends in outer space. So it's a very relatable situation—the child having to move dwelling because the parents work. Just it'south in this exotic location, and there's poo, and kids—boys, peculiarly—love that. Like my friend said, information technology hits all the notes: very smart.

KB: And it'south creator-owned as well. [Laughter]

RP: Exactly!

KB: I'll take to check that 1 out for my youngest, who'south besides a fleck scatological. [Laughter]

RP: Did I say Chris? I meant Craig Thompson.

KB: Ah! Craig Thompson. Yep.

RP: Aye, the Blankets guy.

KB: What almost you, Louie? What are some all-ages comics that yous recommend?

LJ: Ah, this is definitely something I dearest most being a parent at the moment, and the age that—my eldest is six and my middle child is three. Then they're at good ages for reading comics—comics specially, because they tin can't read yet, but they can read the visual storytelling that is at that place. So I've had comics lying around—I made an effort to take comics lying around and piles lying around for them to discover on their own, and for them to first flipping through on their own. My eldest has been doing it for years at present, and I love when I catch them looking through stuff.

Also just existence able to research and expect at the new all-ages stuff or the quondam all-ages stuff or what's coming out has been really fun. Fantasy Sports by Sam Bosma is one of my favourite comics that I've read that we proceed to read. I retrieve at that place'south iii volumes out, and it came out from—I want to say it's published by Nobrow. Information technology's nigh a young kid named Whizz who is a temple-raiding sorcerer, and they raid temples and look for treasure. There'due south ever conflict, but none of the conflict is fighting-based; it's all sports-based. And so they have to either beat this opponent in a basketball or a volleyball game or mini golf game. Information technology's accommodating sports. And it'south beautifully illustrated—prissy oversized—I recall it's the aforementioned size as Hilda, so more in the Asterix and Tintin vein. And then bigger pages, beautifully printed, simply really squeamish stories and storytelling. My son actually loves that volume.

What else take we been reading at the moment? Hilda is fantastic and I think everyone has clued in now on Hilda being this—

KB: Oh yeah. Hilda'due south wonderful.

LJ: —powerhouse all-ages story. This is Fantasy Sports here—I love it when I have stuff in reach. This is the third volume of Fantasy Sports—although—

KB: Oh wow!

LJ: —not very useful for the podcast element; simply for you guys. [Laughter]

KB: It'southward 1 of the ironies of having a podcast near comics stuff, because it'south just audio. [Laughter]

LJ: Well, similar I said, I've got these boxes of comics that I brought from my dad's—this is just a side note. But I'one thousand looking through them all and I'thou like, "Oh, I should practice a podcast of me and my dad just talking virtually his comic drove, or me and Marcelo just looking through the comic collection, or something." Merely then it doesn't work, considering y'all need to have it visually there as well. Anyway!

Other all-ages: me and my kids accept been reading the Shazam! Jeff Smith book that he did 10 years ago now. But that's really good. Jeff Smith is amazing. Bone is the other affair that I haven't quite cracked with my kids yet, just we've gone into it a couple of times. I but have the omnibus, so it's a heavy brick to read, and I can't read it at bedtime, because information technology volition simply fall on my face up and knock me out. [Laughter] Only that's one of my favourite comics of all time. It is and then good.

KB: Yeah, I establish with my eldest, with Bone, it took a while: I would leave it around the firm. I would advise to her she read Bone. And I'm not sure, but at some point—information technology would have been in the last ii or three years—she finally picked it upwardly, because I think it was the size that was intimidating. Whereas if it has been those shorter, stand-lonely volumes—I recollect because they reissued them in colour—then maybe she would accept washed information technology a bit sooner. Just yeah, she loves it now, and she's been doing this affair over the last school holidays where she was trying to run into how fast she could read it. [Laughter] And she kept timing herself.

LJ: Crawly!

KB: Information technology was very funny. Anyway, I interrupted. Any other recommendations?

LJ: Trying to look around and encounter: what else have nosotros been reading? Like, Hicotea—Nobrow does such incredible—Hicotea? I never know how to—

KB: I call back it's "Hicotea".

LJ: Hicotea. By—I'm blanking on the writer's name at present.

KB: Lorena Alvarez.

LJ: Lorena Alvarez! That's correct. Nobrow put out so much quality, quality work. The other 1 that I really love from them is The Gamayun Tales, which is these folklore tales that are done in these beautiful pencil illustrations. And once again, the colouring and the presentation is just so squeamish, and the storytelling is so—and I ofttimes find my kids just flipping through those books and reading them themselves, which is keen.

But, yeah, I'm non too—I leave some stuff around, which may exist skews a scrap older as well. Just I'm happy for them to cocky-regulate a little bit. If something is not—if it's going over their heads a bit, they'll frequently just put information technology away and grab something else.

KB: Yes. I remember we're lucky to alive during a fourth dimension where there'due south just been this explosion of middle form comics, which are oftentimes quite all-ages in nature, even though they are—they deal with middle course concerns. But thinking of Raina Telegmeier'southward books. Just some of them are quite universal equally well.

A couple of series that we love is Zita the Spacegirl and Mighty Jack series past Ben Hatke. We really, actually love them, and they're run a risk—kids learning that they tin can't rely on their parents; they have to really accept responsibility—accept activity—that kind of thing.

The other series I really dearest is Cleopatra in Space—

LJ: Oh aye. The name sounds familiar.

KB: —past Mike Maihack. I think he only finished information technology last year, and that ane—information technology has such great humour in it. But equally well, it's got elements of a space ballsy take chances story in it: Cleopatra—the Cleopatra—is taken. She touches an object and for some reason, it transports her in time thousands of years into the hereafter, and there's been a prophecy that she volition salve the world of these people who—it kind of looks a bit Egyptian—from a terrible fate. It's very, very fun.

I'yard only trying to remember—there's been a couple of stand-solitary stuff that I've actually, really enjoyed recently. In that location was a book chosen Allergic that I found in the Scholastic Book Club catalogue, and it's simply this really beautiful, gentle story almost this girl who loves, loves, loves animals, and when she turns ten, her parents hope her that she can go to the local fauna rescue and choose a pet. But the minute she does that, she discovers that she's allergic to all animals. And it'southward simply devastating in the way that simply a ten-year-erstwhile heart tin pause. It's and then devastating. I really, really enjoyed that.

There was another one that I read recently called El Deafo by Cece Bong: it's an autobiographical comic, and it talks about her growing up with—she's non completely deaf, but plenty that she needs hearing aids. And it's really really clever, because there will be $.25 where the lettering is greyed out or smudged, or there's only bits of it coming through, and you get a sense of what it's like to exist her and not being able to hear what's going on around her. She eventually gets this—I forget what it's chosen. It's like an FM thing that helps her to hear. And and so hearing becomes her superpower, because she's able to hear stuff that other people can't hear.

LJ: Yes, that sounds great.

KB: Anyway, we could continue and on and on.

LJ: Aye! Tin can I just shout out one more than?

KB: Yeah certain!

LJ: Activity Tank by Mike Barry—I want to give a shoutout, because my son admittedly loved that. It is a really great example of inventive, interesting storytelling that'due south so accessible to a child. It'south really interestingly told and laid out, and a bit experimental in that fashion. But really, actually articulate and concise. I think it's a really good comic to give to someone who doesn't read comics, who's young, who's going to go hooked on comics, I reckon.

KB: Good pick. Thank you for mentioning that!

LJ: No worries.

Making comics for kids versus making comics for adults

KB: That leads united states of america into the adjacent topic: so you talked a lilliputian scrap, Louie, almost how in creating stuff for kids, you endeavour to make things a bit clearer and a bit less experimental, just information technology's non that kids can't handle experimental, as yous've said. Are there any other things that you exercise that are different from when you're making comics purely for adults?

LJ: I don't think so. I'm going to say no. Similar I said, I don't want to impaired things down. I don't want to recall that I need to brand things elementary for a child to grasp. About of my arroyo is the aforementioned: I think it was simply ensuring, for Haphaven, that we had very clear storytelling, so people wouldn't—and then at that place's no way for anyone to get lost. And so information technology was as attainable as possible for new reader—new people new to comics who've never read a comic earlier—yet still engaging for people who honey comics and have read heaps of comics. I think that'southward a practiced approach with kids' stuff, because if information technology's a get-go comic—if information technology's any kid'south commencement comic—I want them to be able to just be absorbed into the story and the world then that they get hooked and then that they can discover all the other crawly, amazing comics there are. So that'due south the chief thing I keep in heed—just making sure that my storytelling is articulate and fun and accessible.

But when it comes to drawing style—the fashion I'm constructing characters or the style I'm using my colours, or the techniques of drawing and stuff, I don't think I modify my arroyo for an all-ages story. I call back that simply is something I might do on a project-by-projection basis simply to keep things interesting. But I think kids should read stories that are drawn in all unlike ways and run across all the dissimilar ways of approaching and creating art, and all of these things.

KB: Yep, sure, definitely. How nearly you, René? Are there things or different approaches that you take?

RP: Yeah, and then I tin can't really speak from feel in terms of writing, because the only fiction writing I've done is aimed at kids. Simply I would imagine a lot of it'due south to practice with vocab and themes and whatnot.

I can speak from art manner, because i of the projects that you and I collaborated on, Karen—and hopefully with some other one that we've got coming upwardly—the themes are a bit more than grown upwardly. And then, for those, I but took slightly more than realistic proportions. For my kids' stuff, most of the characters are really squishy and cartoony, and their bodies tin practise all sorts of things, and information technology doesn't actually matter. But I feel like for the more grown-upward themes, you want to communicate a little bit more seriousness to reflect that.

Having said that, I do also have dissimilar proportions within my kids stuff. The different characters have different body types. And so some volition be massive and totally unrealistic, and others volition be more normal person-sized—that seven-head-peak cartoon style. Only having mainly done stuff for kids, I can't practise a lot of comparing of it.

KB: Sure.

RP: How about you lot, Karen?

KB: As you said, I remember is more to practice with the unlike themes and subject matter. I've only done the Monsters anthology for kids, and I did write a picture book, which hasn't gone anywhere. But anyway. Just having those concerns and trying to call back virtually what are the things that would be concerns for them. So with some of the Monsters stories, there's one about nutrient, because with my kids, nutrient is a massive consequence [Laughter]—less so for the older one, but definitely even so for the younger 1, and at that place are things that she volition non swallow. She does not want to even touch them. So I wrote a story about that.

Being a parent and being a comic creator

KB: And so how does being a parent affect the style that you lot tackle such projects, if it does? And does information technology bear upon your creative procedure at all? René, practice y'all want to go first?

RP: Well, like I said before, but keeping it relativity make clean and trauma-free is a good start. That's the essentials. I think themes—in terms of fitting in and your place in the world—I call up they actually strike a chord.

Actually, I was going to mention before another keen all-ages comic that I dear: In Real Life by—

KB: Cory Doctorow?

RP: Cory Doctorow. Was he a writer for Wired?

KB: I call back so …?

RP: Or something like that—a technology magazine or something. The artwork past Jen Wang really drew me to it. But the story is so profound. Once more, it's about a daughter who moves to a new neighbourhood, goes to a schoolhouse, joins the gaming club and learns that there are internet farmers who get into these alive Massively Multiplayer Games and take to earn their living from farming gold in these games. And then she begins a bit of an awareness campaign and draws attention to that, and becomes friends with a golden farmer overseas. So just those themes of fitting in, finding your place in the world and discovering that there are other people out there similar yourself—those, I remember, are big ones.

I don't know if I've washed that in my comics, but I'll let you decide.

KB: Yep. I can see it a little flake, I recall, in the Sneaky Goblins stuff. But it's interesting with Mythic Beast Trainer, the impetus behind that is more than of an economic one, which probably doesn't hitting home equally well with children.

RP: That might take been reflecting more my fears than my kids'. [Laughter]

KB: Aye, sure. What about you, Louie? How does being a parent affect the style you tackle all-ages projects, if it does?

LJ: Yeah, information technology definitely does. I will evidence my kids stuff that I'g doing to get their opinion on information technology. I'd be like, "Hey, what exercise you think of this? Does this look cool?" And kids are honest. Kids are brutally honest. So they're a good sounding lath to be ask things like, "Would you read a story near this character? What if this was happening? Does this sound like fun? Exciting? No? Okay, fine. I'll go back to the drawing lath." [Laughter] Just definitely becoming a parent just immediately collection me towards wanting to make more all-ages stories—to make stories that I could read with my kids.

Creatively, it'southward been reading kids books. I think in my comics reading, prior to having kids, I was reading a very specific kind of style of illustration and story and comics. That all got expanded when I started reading comics and childrens books with my kids. And that actually affected my perspective on drawing and creating illustrations and telling stories. So I'm really thankful for that attribute of being a parent. It does open your inspirations—both just because they are inspiring little people, merely also you're exposed to so much more experiences and situations and people and books and illustrations and all that kind of stuff. So I endeavor to absorb every bit much of that as I can, and hopefully it tin can come out in the work I create. I love the inspiration that beingness a parent tin provide.

It makes it hard to create actual work [Laughter] because there'south inappreciably whatever fourth dimension [Laughter] to do anything, and the fourth dimension you do take is very short and frequently interrupted. Merely I that's just means y'all—hopefully you lot get better at time direction and problem solving, and all of these things. [Laughter]

KB: Yep, yes. I love that likewise—that they might bring stuff habitation that interests them that they found at the library—in the school library or something—or something someone'due south lent them that only expands your earth and exposes you to other stuff. And following their interests: I detect, with my eldest, she is now discovering stuff on her own—reading webcomics as well. She was hugely into this fan PowerPuff Girls comic, which was fatigued manga-style [Laughter]. I found information technology quite over-the-top, because the writing was very melodramatic and some of the situations were very melodramatic. But she loved information technology. She just ate it upward.

Information technology likewise changed her drawing style besides: I found that after that, I could see that she was mimicking some of the stuff she'd been reading. So that was really cool.

[Music]

KB: Well, that concludes Part 1 of my conversation with Louie Joyce and René Pfitzner near all-ages comics.

Thanks for joining us for this episode of the Hiveminded Podcast! For links, show notes, a rough transcript and some free comics, head to hivemindedness.com.

Audio editing and production was washed by me. Our theme music is "I'm going for a coffee" by Lee Rosevere (which is slightly ironic, because I don't drinkable coffee). Website design by Ben Beilharz. And special thanks as always to Rebecca Jee and  Guan Un of the Hive Mind, whose undying support has made all of this possible.

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Source: https://hivemindedness.com/

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